a typical example of the poor attitude towards cyclists

[pigman]

So what to do we do? Fight the fight of the occluded middle? Or perhaps accept that just as cyclists have many arguments against the behaviour of drivers, perhaps some cyclists could do to address their behaviour, too?

well if I were to sort it out and try to reconcile drivers v cyclists, from our angle i would have.

1. compulsory 3rd party insurance for all over 18's on bikes (enforcable by law)
2. heavy penalties for RLJing, wrong ways on roundabouts/one way streets (law)
3. no adult pavement riding unless youre accompanying a kid under 10 (law)
4. no riding in pedestrianised areas (law)
(where they cant pay, a confiscation of bike.)
5. a ban on cycling tops saying "one less car" "I'm saving the planet" etc (a society cultural shift thingy)
6. a ban on cycling media/pressure groups/national organisations that hint at the car as being sporn of the devil. The car has been a very good servant you know, very useful. Its just become over-used and over worshipped (society/culture)
7. a ban on mitigating bad cycling or automatically building a gallows for a driver who has been involved in a car v bike.

At least then we have our own house in order to then pontificate and might get some respect from other road users.

 

[channa]

Overall I like it

Channa

 

[Easy_Rider]

So what to do we do? Fight the fight of the occluded middle? Or perhaps accept that just as cyclists have many arguments against the behaviour of drivers, perhaps some cyclists could do to address their behaviour, too?

well if I were to sort it out and try to reconcile drivers v cyclists, from our angle i would have.

1. compulsory 3rd party insurance for all over 18's on bikes (enforcable by law)
2. heavy penalties for RLJing, wrong ways on roundabouts/one way streets (law)
3. no adult pavement riding unless youre accompanying a kid under 10 (law)
4. no riding in pedestrianised areas (law)
(where they cant pay, a confiscation of bike.)
5. a ban on cycling tops saying "one less car" "I'm saving the planet" etc (a society cultural shift thingy)
6. a ban on cycling media/pressure groups/national organisations that hint at the car as being sporn of the devil. The car has been a very good servant you know, very useful. Its just become over-used and over worshipped (society/culture)
7. a ban on mitigating bad cycling or automatically building a gallows for a driver who has been involved in a car v bike.

At least then we have our own house in order to then pontificate and might get some respect from other road users.

Most of these points already apply to mopeds and scooters but i don't see much respect for them on the road. Really we need to stop this us and them.

 

[channa]

So what to do we do? Fight the fight of the occluded middle? Or perhaps accept that just as cyclists have many arguments against the behaviour of drivers, perhaps some cyclists could do to address their behaviour, too?

well if I were to sort it out and try to reconcile drivers v cyclists, from our angle i would have.

1. compulsory 3rd party insurance for all over 18's on bikes (enforcable by law)
2. heavy penalties for RLJing, wrong ways on roundabouts/one way streets (law)
3. no adult pavement riding unless youre accompanying a kid under 10 (law)
4. no riding in pedestrianised areas (law)
(where they cant pay, a confiscation of bike.)
5. a ban on cycling tops saying "one less car" "I'm saving the planet" etc (a society cultural shift thingy)
6. a ban on cycling media/pressure groups/national organisations that hint at the car as being sporn of the devil. The car has been a very good servant you know, very useful. Its just become over-used and over worshipped (society/culture)
7. a ban on mitigating bad cycling or automatically building a gallows for a driver who has been involved in a car v bike.

At least then we have our own house in order to then pontificate and might get some respect from other road users.

Most of these points already apply to mopeds and scooters but i don't see much respect for them on the road. Really we need to stop this us and them.

Well the observation is the easy bit...so I ask how ?

Channa

 

[Easy_Rider]

So what to do we do? Fight the fight of the occluded middle? Or perhaps accept that just as cyclists have many arguments against the behaviour of drivers, perhaps some cyclists could do to address their behaviour, too?

well if I were to sort it out and try to reconcile drivers v cyclists, from our angle i would have.

1. compulsory 3rd party insurance for all over 18's on bikes (enforcable by law)
2. heavy penalties for RLJing, wrong ways on roundabouts/one way streets (law)
3. no adult pavement riding unless youre accompanying a kid under 10 (law)
4. no riding in pedestrianised areas (law)
(where they cant pay, a confiscation of bike.)
5. a ban on cycling tops saying "one less car" "I'm saving the planet" etc (a society cultural shift thingy)
6. a ban on cycling media/pressure groups/national organisations that hint at the car as being sporn of the devil. The car has been a very good servant you know, very useful. Its just become over-used and over worshipped (society/culture)
7. a ban on mitigating bad cycling or automatically building a gallows for a driver who has been involved in a car v bike.

At least then we have our own house in order to then pontificate and might get some respect from other road users.

Most of these points already apply to mopeds and scooters but i don't see much respect for them on the road. Really we need to stop this us and them.

Well the observation is the easy bit...so I ask how ?

Channa

I'm not quite sure what your are asking. I just see the same dangerous overtaking manoeuvres of scooters and mopeds as I see with bikes.

There is another point to raise which some may not agree with. Our roads are no doubt some of the best designed and signed in the world (really don't want to start an argument about this so please just imagine it if you don't agree) everything is in place to drive fast. One example is banking on motorways and dual carriageways (you'll be surprised that many countries don't have this and quite often have negative camber too). Cateye road reflectors, many countries don't have these either, ours are quite sophisticated with changing colours for outside lanes or junctions. So we have been given the impression of a free flowing fast road network but in reality we are an overcrowded island. Confrontation is only natural human nature, we feel like we should be travelling much faster along a certain stretch (speed limit is 60mph god dammit, how many times ave i said that to myself) of road so when we encounter an "obstacle" be it a slow vehicle or cyclist we seem to become impatient, "get out of my way" attitude.

I just feel that in Europe the road system is set up in such a way that you have to expect the unexpected while in our health and safety society we have tried to set up a safe road network but ended up with the feeling that anything out of the ordinary is an int he way of our driving/cycling.

Anyway, I'm not lecturing, just adding to the debate so please don't take every word apart and analyse it under a knife

 

[channa]

Without tearing a word I disagree ..hows that for transparency ?

Channa

 

[Easy_Rider]

Without tearing a word I disagree ..hows that for transparency ?

Channa

As much as frosted glass.
The analysing every word comment really wasn't meant for you.

Still think we should all just relax a bit on the roads , too much confrontation

 

[Neil]

I just feel that in Europe the road system is set up in such a way that you have to expect the unexpected while in our health and safety society we have tried to set up a safe road network but ended up with the feeling that anything out of the ordinary is an int he way of our driving/cycling.

I think the UK's road designs have evolved into a situation that perhaps was thought of based on safety or traffic calming, but what was ignored were the behavioural impacts on drivers.

I'm thinking of all the paint that goes on roads, now, where some A roads were once two lanes in either direction, but have now been "calmed" by merit of paint and markings to be only one. Or other roads where chicanes or pinch points have been put in, or the speed humps etc. I think this was probably done with the best of intentions, to either slow down traffic, or encourage alternative routes.

But as I said, I don't thing they even considered - or if they did, they did it inadequately - the behavioural impact on drivers. I think the idea of calming the traffic, has simply inflamed a lot of drivers - albeit perhaps not conciously.

I also think that the general public - or at least the motoring public - has become more hostile to cyclists - whether that's purely a change in times (as more people have more cars) or whether the way roads have evolved, has had some impact, I'm not sure, but I think the roads and motorists don't seem anywhere like as cycling friendly as they did in years gone by.

Because of this, I think cyclists face an uphill battle where keeping motorists on-side and friendly is concerned.

 

[crud]

from greena to arhus airport in denmark is a pretty straight forward route, one road 12km.

it is pitch black at night, no lights no cats eyes, the wrong camber around the corners and the road is raised on flat marshland so plenty of drop offs, oh and faded whitelines which dont actually make any sense half the time

it scares the shit out of me driving at night.

this is a main (artery) road with heavy traffic classed as just below a motorway so an a road if you like, in a rich western europe country

so i kind of agree with easy rider's comments.

in the last 10 months i have also driven thousands of miles in germany and holland.

we do have the best designed roads in the uk. 'as a whole' you show me a bad example, i wont be suprised.

 

[dyna-ti]

:?
Hmmm
Let's look at a similar example

Several cars racing and one barrels into a cyclist whilst jostling for position.

OK.the driver rightly gets a custodial sentence
but what would they be charged with
A causing death by reckless driving
Or
B Have the sentence increased to that of causing death by dangerous driving or at least an extra charge and an increase in eventual sentence.
Because he was racing on a road where racing is not permitted except under sponsored events where the road is closed to non race traffic

Bottom line is the cyclist is partly if not largely responsible for his own demise.
He didnt pay proper attention to other road users simply because he was using the road wrongly
It was an accident that not for them racing would have not involved this girl :?