a typical example of the poor attitude towards cyclists
- Thread starter legrandefromage
- Start date
retrojon":3x8s80rc said:
hmm, i don't know much about the subject, but when there is an actual road race don't they close roads, or create a rolling block behind the last cyclists with loads of marshalls etc?
From my, personal, experience of time trials (on the A41) there is no marshaling or general awarenes by the public anything is going on other than a cyclist concentrating more on his riding than the road.
When I did my motorbike test I was told that to think that every other road user is out to knock you off your bike. There are a lot bad drivers that if you dont compensate you will have an accident.
You cant ride a bicycle on the public highway, stick to the highway code and expect everything to be ok. The way I see these time trialers negotiate junctions (correctly of course) but with no regard to the idiots around them I think its just a matter of time.
to quote my instructor
Read the original letter again, the issue is not being inconvenienced by cyclists, racing, it's about some of them being so focussed on racing making them oblivious and inconsiderate, and in some cases down dangerous when other traffic is trying to use the road, too.retrojon":z6sd2krg said:
At least when road rallies take place, it tends to be in the dead of night, and probably much out of the way of the bulk of traffic.
None of this is about sharing the roads with cyclists, or even being inconvenienced by cyclists, it's about the actions of some, so focused on their race, or so focused on socialising, that any consideration, observation or awareness of other road traffic has gone out of the window.
When I used to regularly commute over roads where time trials were taking place, there were some marshalls stationed at various points, some signs of caution - which is fair play - there were a lot more cyclists around at that point than normal.crud":1armwm08 said:
And I've no problem with onus being that drivers give extra care, the problem is that some are very focused on their race, so seem to cycle oblivious to their surroundings, any priority (say at roundabouts) and move unpredictably and without any apparent observation. They don't seem to accept or behave as if they are still sharing the road with traffic - and I don't mean necessarily by giving way, or showing deference - merely being observant, and not expecting that the waves will just part for them at junctions, because they're in a race.
And there's the other groups you see, who seem to be taking part more as a social group - again no problem, but they bunch and cycle 4 and 5 abreast or more, in large groups, again showing no consideration that other traffic is still trying to use the road.
I think you're right about these events largely being accidents waiting to happen - when I used to regularly drive through such events, I never had any instances where I had a near miss (ie when I felt I was close to colliding with a cyclist) - because I was always very careful (after all I'm a cyclist myself) to give them room and extra caution - but there were several instances when either I'd had to slow, or was at junctions / obstructions, when some cyclists had near misses with my car - simply because they were either so focused on their race, that their observation seemed very poor, or because they didn't want to compromise their speed / momentum.
That and cyclists trying to stay in clipless pedals, when either the circumstances won't permit, or they've run out of track stand talent.
With some drivers who aren't as considerate or aware of cyclists - and we know there are plenty - it's easy to see how accidents can, and likely will happen.
retrojon
Retro Guru
Why tell me to read it again? You read it again!
It isn't just TTs that she takes exception to, unless there is some new fangled social TTing that I haven't heard of.
Basically she might just be OK with us, so long as we ride single file in the gutter and dive in to the nearest ditch if we see a car coming.
And there was me thinking this was a cycling forum :roll:
It isn't just TTs that she takes exception to, unless there is some new fangled social TTing that I haven't heard of.
Basically she might just be OK with us, so long as we ride single file in the gutter and dive in to the nearest ditch if we see a car coming.
And there was me thinking this was a cycling forum :roll:
Because several people seem determined to plant strawman arguments about what she was actually complaining about, that's why.retrojon":15m7i7oj said:
And I'm quite happy to read it again - she's not said, nor implied things that she's being slated for. By all means, criticise the things that have actually been said, but not simply what you'd like to have been said - that's just bad form.
I've seen just the very same thing, during TT events, in a totally different region, so I've no reason to believe she's making it up.retrojon":15m7i7oj said:
During TT events, I've seen big groups of cyclists, cyling together, very wide, and in a big long group - not necessarily particularly fastly - they didn't appear to be concerned about beating any times, nor any other traffic on the road.
Why try and plant an argument that neither she - nor anybody else in this thread - has raised? That's why I said you should read her letter again, so mistakes like this wouldn't have to keep cropping up. HTH.retrojon":15m7i7oj said:
I've not seen one comment that either directly, or by implication, suggests she's not prepared to share the road with cyclists - merely that some of the behaviour of some cyclists when time trials are taking place, is a problem - and potentially unsafe - when the roads are still open for normal traffic. And I agree - I regularly used to experience the exact same things she mentioned.
I'm a cyclist and have been for around 30 years, I'm not predisposed to be against cyclists on the road, and in fact normally end up arguing from the cyclists side of this types of debate. But I read her letter, and reread it several times, and I have to say, as somebody who regularly used to commute over roads where time trials were taking place, I experienced the same things.
Yet several people in this thread seem determined to criticise her standpoint, and her letter, for things she's not even said, or even implied. Look closer.
Of course it is - it doesn't mean we should simply be blind apologists for every behaviour cyclists are involved in, nor invent or misrepresent the arguments of people who've criticised (IMO, quite fairly) the behaviour of some competitors in cycling events held on public roads.retrojon":15m7i7oj said:
retrojon
Retro Guru
But lots of other people or things use the road in a manner that could be dangerous if a motorist wants to get past in a hurry.
Every Wednesday I drive past a football stadium. Sometimes there are people all over the road as the ground empties! How do I cope??
Last week there was a whole herd of sheep in the road on my way to work.
Oddly enough I didn't write to the local paper and say that football and farming should be banned because they were inconsiderately using the bit of tarmac I like to drive on.
It is the nature of cycling that any group ride bunches up now and again and ends up several abreast for a bit. It is not the army, we can't all stay in a perfect line.
Every Wednesday I drive past a football stadium. Sometimes there are people all over the road as the ground empties! How do I cope??
Last week there was a whole herd of sheep in the road on my way to work.
Oddly enough I didn't write to the local paper and say that football and farming should be banned because they were inconsiderately using the bit of tarmac I like to drive on.
It is the nature of cycling that any group ride bunches up now and again and ends up several abreast for a bit. It is not the army, we can't all stay in a perfect line.
Why suggest that it's necessarily a problem with a motorist if they want to pass - what's this "hurry" thing being subtly planted in there?retrojon":22q281zt said:
This isn't about hazards that drivers can encounter - that are passive. It's about traffic (ie the cyclists) on the road, that are focused on other priorities than traffic should be, whilst sharing the road with other traffic, and quite rightly pointing out (as others have said in this thread) that it's a recipe for accidents and tragedy.
1. That's very localised - doesn't go on for miles and miles - it's just a very localised hazardretrojon":22q281zt said:
2. It's not traffic - they are not moving along the same bit of carriageway, trying to integrate with traffic, whilst some seem oblivious because their main focus is in beating the clock, or socialising with a group
<shrug>retrojon":22q281zt said:
The usual? Pills, booze, therapy, groups, self-help CDs?
See 1 & 2 above...retrojon":22q281zt said:
She wasn't complaining about every cyclist, just those that were either so focused on competing, they weren't paying attention to other traffic, or so focused on socialising, that they presented an inconsiderate size and length of hazard.retrojon":22q281zt said:
Nobody suggested riding in single file, or in the gutter, but you.retrojon":22q281zt said:
But there's a difference in realisation that they are sharing the road with other traffic and motorists, and riding in large groups, very wide and long, whilst other traffic is trying to use the road, too, is most inconsiderate.
That doesn't produce the argument of extremes that cyclists should ride single file, in a neat line, unless somebody is determined to make it, and not see the middle ground.
This is very normal, albeit unhelpful, reaction - people read a letter criticising some cyclists, and go overboard in reaction against it, so polarised and presupposing all sorts of implications and agendas that are simply not stated (nor to my mind, implied), simply because it dared be the voice of criticism. It's the failure to understand the opposing view, the lack of empathy that stifles progress. That, and subverting a reasonable criticism as an argument of extreme, when it was never that in the first place.
She didn't write anything slating all the cyclists taking part - merely the ones so focused on racing, that they weren't paying any other attention to their surroundings and other traffic, or those that really were presenting inconsiderate hazards.
The article written, some months back, by that idiot "celeb" chef were much more intrinsically and unfairly biased against people cycling on road, even if he was playing shock-jock.
Like the woman writing the letter, I used to regularly drive on roads where time trials were taking place, and I regularly saw this behaviour - not by every cyclist - but in practically every time trial I drove through. I'm not predisposed to be against cyclists or cycling events.
I just don't get the bias against it, it's as if some people don't actually want to read and respond to the points she actually made, but have just become so polarised against it, as it's perceived as a general criticism of cycling, that they're prepared to forego the actual content of the letter, and subvert it with their own, potted, inferred version to fight against.
