600ax Derailleurs HELP

[paullincoln]

HELP if you have information

An old 'pass down' bike of mine with full 600ax groupset has come back to me after about 20 years. I was thinking of putting it on a Gazelle frame that I just purchased. The idea was to upgrade the wheel set and use a 10 speed cassette with new downtube shifters from Shimano. The 10 speed shifter upgrade was because the 600ax friction shifters are band on and my Gazelle has braze on gear shifter bosses.

I've discovered a few problems with the pending migration

1. The 600ax rear derraileur is designed for cable guides above the bottom bracket. I could experiment to work around this, but so far. its not looking elegant.
2. I've suddenly noticed that the 600ax rear d has no barrel adjustment! I imagine that would be hell to finely adjust the 10 speed index

Velobase reports an inbuilt Positive Shift Mechanism built into the rear derraileur, and it further states that it has to work with friction shifters only and works well only with 6 speed cassettes.
http://velobase.com/ViewShiftSystem.asp ... 38b17cdc95

Q1 Has anyone here mixed 600ax Rear Derraileurs with modern shifters?
Q2 Has anyone here ever run the 600ax rear D with cables that channel under the BB?

If all comes to nought I might just have to keep the old red bike in its current state and not mess it up to much
For info, the Red Bike is called 'Roger' and its likely a Taiwanese or Japanese brandless frame that was purchased by a cousin in Singapore in the 80's. Its got Tange dropouts and 'Aero' oval tubing on the down and seat tube.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Tel]

I've seen 600ax used with under tube guides but imho it's not ideal.

In regard to indexing it I think it's something you'll just have to try! You may get away with it if you use bar shifters (STI's, bar ends, etc) and have the adjusters on the downtube.

But in honesty I think the project is doomed to failure!

 

[legrandefromage]

I really doubt if it will index at all due to cable pull and the mechs parallelogram action - the mech may move too far or too little to index properly. You may find that the AX down tube shifters fit onto the braze-ons of the Gazelle once taken off the band.

 

[paullincoln]

Thanks for the reality check 'Tel'.. as I'm sitting here in my man cave staring at 'Roger' and my Gazelle frame next to it with my shiny 10 speed Dura Ace downtube shifters.. i've got that sinking feeling that i'm screwed :shock:

'Legradefromage' yes they do fit on the braze on's.. seem to need a couple of washers.. but yes it should work.. only problem would be the cable routing. Which i may try...

Roger has had a rather hard life for the last 20 years... my late step father was using it fully loaded with panniers and all. chalked up lots of miles and carried much weight. I'm almost sad to disassemble Roger. I find it so ironic that this bike with its rather 'exotic' Japanese groupset and Aero tubing lived such a laboured life as a workhorse with panniers, bicycle footstand and all. (not pictured) Almost like using a Miata as an AA Van.

Thanks again all for the responses. i'm going to go cry now

 

[g eisler]

I run a 600 ax set up on an 80s tsunoda, it is what it is , indexes vaguely with 6 speeds, no danger of it working with 10.
IMO period suntour gear is far superior, something like a cyclone DR with a cable stop fitted to the chainstay will give far superior operation.
Disraeli gears has a very amusing comment about the AX DR
"The Shimano Dura-Ace AX (7300) is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. A ground-breaking technical tour de force with a silky smooth shift - that was reviled in the peleton as unreliable, fragile and tetchy. The subject of one of the most sophisticated, elegant, expensive and comprehensive marketing campaigns in the history of the cycle industry - that failed disastrously in the market."

 

[paullincoln]

Thanks for that nugget eisler. I've sort of decided not to mess with the bike too much and abandon the transplant. I'm going to refurbish the bike and celebrate the fact that's it's an Asian 'aero' bike of the time.

I too can't say there is any 'indexing' happening when I change gears. Then again I've never found it difficult to friction shift 6 speeds. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what I should be feeling

I also notice the low gear largest cassette cog stop adjustment on the derailleur does this thing where it goes to the top end of the cassette then extends downwards. Almost as though it was designed to adjust to much larger toothed cogs.

It's quite a wacky groupset. From the dyna pedals needing size 30mm spanner to above bb chain guides only! Even my older 600 arabesque has a barrel adjuster and can take cable routing above or below the chain stay

 

[g eisler]

Yup it is a wacky groupset, I have a similar feeling towards my tsunoda, it works OK when you get used to it, but an adjuster would have been handy, biggest problem with the rear DR is that the pulleys are not standard.
My pedals were replaced with NOS spares at a reasonable price from Diefietsenmaker in Holland ( better than ebay prices which were shocking)

 

[paullincoln]

Shimano 600ax Rear Derrailuer by paulblincoln, on Flickr

To anyone researching 600ax rear derailleurs. Here is a close up of the in-built derailleur indexing system. for the 600ax there are 6 defined steps in the movement of the derailleur. I'm guessing that the Dura Ace ax had 7 steps. Personally with the bike in its uncleaned state, i couldn't feel the steps in the friction shifter. I'll try again when its cleaned up. Perhaps there might be more feedback.

Sorry for the stray dog fur

 

[paullincoln]

'G Eisler' why would you need a tension adjuster if you are running friction shifters?

 

[g eisler]

@ paulincoln to take up the slack as the cable beds in from new