1939 Claud Butler "D.S.H. Championship Path #931600E

[dyna-ti]

Re: 1949 Claud Butler Olympic Path #931600E (Stars & Stripes)

I opted restore as ive been riding my Claud for a few years now and its a fine bike to ride.
Certainly its been through the wars but mechanically when i got it was pretty much as new looked after condition, with a few exceptions. Faded paint, horribly damaged decals, but it is a British bike and I also like it for that. Especially in this day and age of disposable BSO's
I've no time and too many other projects, but I'd like to see claud butlers restored as much as possible. And theres a lot of period dramas out there , so i reckon the museums will be ok

 

[Peachy!]

Re: 1949 Claud Butler Olympic Path #931600E (Stars & Stripes)

I opted restore as ive been riding my Claud for a few years now and its a fine bike to ride.
Certainly its been through the wars but mechanically when i got it was pretty much as new looked after condition, with a few exceptions. Faded paint, horribly damaged decals, but it is a British bike and I also like it for that. Especially in this day and age of disposable BSO's
I've no time and too many other projects, but I'd like to see claud butlers restored as much as possible. And theres a lot of period dramas out there , so i reckon the museums will be ok

Cheers Dyna-ti, I'm going down the route of keeping its original kit, but having it re-plated... it's really nice stuff, just lost most of its plating. And as I've said before, I regard chrome as something that is first and foremost doing a job, of preventing steel from rusting.

 

[Ghaben1]

Re: Re:

Hi,
I just thought I would explain my reasoning as it maybe useful, it is just an opinion.

Your Frame has a Seat lug - Bilaminate ?
Chater lea bottom brackets tend to have a serial number on the casting post war
Claud did do refurb's post war, I have one with both a pre war number ( 1938/48 ) or post ( it is a pre war model but ! ), but also with a standard 1953 set of numbers on the BB, it has had a simplex 51 shifter fitting added and repaint.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters to much, either side of the war is nightmare for dating a frame.

Thanks

Terry

By seconding the above opinion, I would also give the dating a reconsideration. The axe-head lugs on the frame are in fact lugs (!!!) named "Continental lugs" as in the 1939 catalogue and not bilams, one would think (the difference is clearly visible by comparing these lugs with on-line photos of the bilams). Wouldn't make sense to do bilams on the (cast) Chater Lea BB, anyway.

The frame may have gone under a refurb later in the fifties, when the off-line forks were fitted (the Ekla fork crown is pretty far from a typical track/path crown, anyway). The head tube was likely modernized by cutting off the cups for the recessed (clip type) headset to give way for the then modern Gnutti headset now on the bike. That headset BTW, is the Gnutti Decagon, standard on higher end Claud Butlers in the early fifties. (Look for the 1953-53 catalogues.)

This frame also looks to sport another serial number under the Chaterl Lea logo on the BB shell, 3(8?)53 563 (bit difficult to make that out from the photo). In that, figure 563 would be a standard denoting of March 1956, though. In summary, my opinion is that the bike originally is a DSH Championship Path from 1939, updated in 1956 when fitted with some outlier forks and the Decagon headset.

The Olympic badge may as well be original, though... here is another example of a CB from the thirties with the flat Olympic badge: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2015/04/ ... claud.html
but could have been added, anytime later...

 

[Peachy!]

Re: 1949 Claud Butler Olympic Path #931600E (Stars & Stripes)

Hello Ghaben1, always good to hear from people with knowledge about old lightweights, thanks for the observations, certainly food for thought. Just want to check a few things though, that maybe you might be able to help with.

By seconding the above opinion, I would also give the dating a reconsideration. The axe-head lugs on the frame are in fact lugs (!!!) named "Continental lugs" as in the 1939 catalogue and not bilams, one would think (the difference is clearly visible by comparing these lugs with on-line photos of the bilams). Wouldn't make sense to do bilams on the (cast) Chater Lea BB, anyway.

I’m fortunate enough to own an original copy of the 1939 catalogue, and (only my opinion mind) I believe these Lugs look much more like the 1949 illustration of the Olympic path Bi-lam than the 1939 Continental cast lugs. (see illustrations below) although I do appreciate these are line drawings not photographs so are open to some artistic interpretation.



Also, I have been led to believe (possibly incorrectly) that cast lugs and tube cut Bi-laminations are almost indistinguishable (unless stripped of paint which reveals the brazed joint) as they both perfectly follow the curve of the tube they wrap over, unlike the cheap post war bi-lams that where cut from flat sheet which have a “tell”, namely some of the protruding details don’t follow the curve so precisely and leave slightly flatter spots with raised edges (like these axe heads and curls marked below) I do recognise that you are the second person who has said these are obviously cast, so maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree. :facepalm:

The Olympic badge may as well be original, though... here is another example of a CB from the thirties with the flat Olympic badge: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2015/04/ ... claud.html
but could have been added, anytime later...

I was under the impression that no Olympic ring head badges were produced until after the 1948 Olympic games and that this flat plate printed version was one of the first type produced. But as you say they could of course be added at anytime during a bike’s life so only really an indicator of the paint jobs date rather than the frames construction.


Thanks for joining in and please don’t misinterpret my musings above as me fiercely defending my thought process, it’s just me attempting to explaining it.

Only one thing I can do to settle this.... carefully remove some paint at a tube transition, if its brazed as per the photo below, we will know it’s a Bi-lam, if no brazing is evident we will know its cast…..

 

[Peachy!]

Re: 1949 Claud Butler Olympic Path #931600E (Stars & Stripes)

Cast Continental lugs they most definitely are!

So, where does that leave us? A 1939 model, re-painted post war by an ex-pat like Jack Heid to race here in Europe after the war, or possible painted up after 1948 to make look like a frame that might have competed in the Olympics for financial gain or perhaps more innocently just in deference or commemoration of that event?

Any guesses? Or theories?

 

[Peachy!]

Re: 1949 Claud Butler Olympic Path #931600E (Stars & Stripes)

So the 1939 “DSH Championship Path” (Denis Sutton Horn) has a 71 Degree seat tube, a 75 degree head, short 40” wheelbase and a long top tube.
Well this frame matches all these stats, with a 22.5” centre to centre top tube, that’s a longer TT than any of my other Claude’s!
Or does the “E” at the end of the frame number refer to Ernie H. Chambers? The man who supervised all the path models in the 30’s....

 

[Peachy!]

Had a pleasant e-mail the other day from an elderly gentleman with quite impressive credentials but who doesn’t want to be referenced on a public forum.
Very informative it was too and has convinced me that what I have is a pre-war 1939 "D.S.H" Championship Path. The top of the range track model in its day. painted up and dressed for competition in the late 40's probably by an ex-pat GI.
And thanks also to those above who kept questioning my assumptions on it being a bike from 1949.

Still some way down the queue re-restoration though, and for now will just happily grace my wall.

 

[Jamiedyer]

That sounds really good that you finally have some positive ID.
Not that it really mattered in the scheme of things as it is obviously a fine built frame that had seen some history.
Still look forward to seeing it progress.

Jamie

 

[Peachy!]

Cheers Jamie, you are quite correct that these little details aren’t really that important, but still interesting, I just whish some days that I could muck about with bike restoration every day! :roll:

 

[Jamiedyer]

I just whish some days that I could muck about with bike restoration every day! :roll:

Don't we all mate, don't we all Though especially so with a fleet as fine as yours.



Jamie