Wide tyres - another great modern bike idea?

[SimonJC]

Bike technology is developing all the time; however as this is a Retro bike forum, this indicates that there is a strong fan base for retro bike technology; and one of the things that has become very popular in recent years in road bikes are wide tyres.
So let's look at the basics. Manufacturers tell us that wide tyres roll better, are more comfortable, grip better, and offer better puncture resistance. Well, that sounds fantastic; who wouldn't want that?

I have used wide tyres on a winter bike, which is normal anyway for extra grip etc but I've never used wider tyres on a summer bike, until last weekend.

I use Veloflex Masters, which if you know your tyres will be aware that these are probably the finest tyre you can can get; in basic terms, they are on a similar line to the Vittoria Corsa CX, the only difference being that they are cheaper and as a nice touch are hand made in Italy rather than Thailand.

Anyway, I have always used 23mm tyres, until last weekend, when I noticed a bad cut in the tyre. I had bought a pair of 25mm Masters a number of months ago, waiting for the time when I could fit them. I put them on, it was a lovely sunny day, so perfect to see what these are like. I pumped the tyres to the usual 7 bar/ 90psi, a little bit less than what I put in the 23s.
I must say that I am underwhelmed. The bike feels a bit lethargic; it is as if the tyres roll a bit slower. There is certainly no improvement in ride quality; however that is difficult anyway as the Masters ride nicer than any tyre I have ever used.
Overall, not really impressed and I am amazed that professionals use these tyres. Yes I can understand that they will grip better in the wet, but in the dry as far as I am concerned you will be faster on 23s. Some even go to 28mm! The only time I've ever used 28s is on a winter bike, and comparing the feel with a narrower tyre of the same type, it feels much slower.

My suspicions about higher rolling resistance were confirmed when I was helping my girlfriend with setting up her track bike as she is competing the world track champs later this year; when you look for track tubulars, the really fast ones such as the Conti Olympic are only listed in 19mm width. The company we got our tubs from gave us an option of 20 or 22mm and they confirmed that 20mm tyres are the faster tyre. Yes of course on the track you don't need to worry about cornering or a damp surface etc but the point is made that narrower tyres are faster.
I think that all this talk about wider tyres being faster is total nonsense. They have their uses, but for a fast tyre narrower seems to be better.
One advantage about 25mm tyres however is that as they sit taller on the bike, it looks better However having seen some pro bikes at races, 28mm tyres look just plain wrong, you half expect to see panniers fitted

Wonder what everyone else thinks? Or will this become another Campag v Shimano or tub v clincher debate?

 

[pigman]

Re:

Interesting observations. I think 90 PSI is too low and would leave too much flex in the sidewalls.
Your comparison of the narrow track tyres v fatter road tyres is flawed. The track tyre will be ridden for a few minutes, the road tyre will be ridden all day, and over that whole day will be more efficient, as comfort is a factor.

It's like saying an ultra close TT frame is more efficient than a road frame. Sure, it's stiffer and moves further for a given effort, but will be less suitable (gearing excepted) for a long day out

 

[SimonJC]

Re: Re:

Interesting observations. I think 90 PSI is too low and would leave too much flex in the sidewalls.
Your comparison of the narrow track tyres v fatter road tyres is flawed. The track tyre will be ridden for a few minutes, the road tyre will be ridden all day, and over that whole day will be more efficient, as comfort is a factor.

It's like saying an ultra close TT frame is more efficient than a road frame. Sure, it's stiffer and moves further for a given effort, but will be less suitable (gearing excepted) for a long day out

Good point about the tyre pressures; I don't usually go above 90psi however I might try this. Tomorrow looks a good forecast so I am hoping to go out and giving this a go

Yes I understand that you can't really compare track and road tyres; the point I was making is that track tyres are made 100% for speed only so will prioritise low rolling resistance over any thing else (there will be a small aspect that takes aerodynamics into account as well). One of the claims made in favour of wide tyres is that they roll better which does not seem correct based on my experience and research into the matter.

Regarding comfort, going by my ride last week, I didn't notice any comfort improvement with the wider tyre at all; in fact if anything it was less comfortable than the 23mm.
Of course this could be due to the tyre pressures so it will be interesting if anything changes with increased pressure (although this should reduce comfort if anything).

Although not related to this, one thing I have found out regarding tyre comfort, is that the width of a tyre has no bearing on this. I have used a number of tyres of the same type but different widths, and the wider tyre has never felt more comfortable. This includes the Specialized Armadillo (25mm & 28mm), Continental 4 Seasons (23mm & 25mm), along with time trial tubulars Continental Tempo (19mm & 22mm) and Veloflex Record (19mm and 23mm) and now the Veloflex Master adds to this list. All felt the same regardless of width.

Investigations ongoing into this

 

[epicyclo]

You need to do your comparisons with a stop watch.

Skinny rock hard tyres feel faster. It ain't necessarily so.

Track tubs are a special case. If roads were as smooth as a velodrome, I'd agree with you, but real life means rough aggregate, potholes, ruts, and protruding road furniture.

 

[mattr]

Funny, all the *actual* testing shows that skinnier tyres and higher pressures are slower on normal roads.
Until you get into a size where aero drag starts to increase.
On a smooth roller, or a velodrome, the smallest size that matches your rim (for aero) and the highest pressure the tub can stand is "best"

Also, rim size can have an impact, if you're running very narrow (open pros are 15mm for example) the tyre will lightbulb, and will feel odd (it'll still be faster, but not as much faster as if you went to maybe a 17 or 18 mm internal rim, with a 25 tyre.)
Need to use decent tubes to take full advantage as well.

So i'd agree with epicyclo, you felt that narrow was faster, but it probably wasn't.

 

[Rod_Saetan]

Covered pretty well by these guys above, I would recommend you read this: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/ ... re-slower/ and maybe some more real world research around the subject too, and would also add that it isn't modern technology.

The main protagonist over the last few years in the 'wider tyres are better' debate is Jan Heine (see above), and he discovered their benefits whist riding classic 1940s and 50s Randonneur bikes with wide 650B tyres. He did some testing (properly, with a stopwatch) and found that up to a point wider, softer tyres are no slower.

Something else to consider as you go wider is suppleness of the sidewall, this makes a big difference to feel - Specialized Armadillos in particular have a very stiff sidewall, so going 2mm bigger when both tyres are stiff anyway will not improve matters.

In conclusion: It's not modern technology, it is not slower, it is more comfortable, it does roll better.

 

[FluffyChicken]

Re:

Surly like MTB tyres/wheels, you'll need to match the width to the rim too. So the sidewalls are acting in the correct direction? Up down and not pulled in to an angle.

Tyre pressure, I'd have thought you would lower the pressure as you now have a greater surface area and allow it to conform to the road surface better. That reduces the jarring and allows it to keep rolling over things and not have the force of the road hitting backwards at you.


Anyway, I guess it will probably all be in the links above.
You'll also soon have 49mm road tyres ;-)

 

[SimonJC]

Interesting comments above.
I went out today for a nice plod; having now ridden the 25mm tyres for a bit, I can honestly say I can't tell at all any difference in ride feel. Then again it could be down to the tyre type; Veloflex tyres give the nicest ride I have ever had from a road tyre.
Ultimately if I come to change the tyres when they are worn out, I won't be too bothered if they are 25 or 23mm. In saying that, the 25mm tyres do look better with their tan sidewall; as I don't race anymore, this aspect might be enough to want me to keep on 25mm tyres!

 

[Woz]

Some interesting comments and https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/ ... re-slower/ was a good read (although
it could be said, the man is not in the speed freak game especially considering this https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/ ... -you-down/).

Oddly, I had a debate with my father on this; he's firmly planted in the 23c camp and I'm in the do-it-all 35c camp. He
likes to feel "connected" to the road being an old track and road racer. He did make the compelling point that really
for climbing you want all weight shed off - a look at National Hill Climb bikes will confirm 23c is still king - and it
takes no genius to figure out if you are going to have a long day climbing in say the alps the argument for skinny
light tyres is still there.

Horses for courses...

 

[Rod_Saetan]

Yes and no. A sprint up a hill is not the same as a day climbing a mountain, what a wider tyre also gives you with increased comfort is an energy saving, you aren't getting beaten up by the road as much so you will have saved more energy to use at the top of the climb. Also, comparing the claimed weights for the tyre du jour, the Continental GP5000S, you would save 30 grams per pair by using a 23c over a 25c, given they would use the same inner tube I would suggest that for the same weight as half a Mars bar you would be better off running the comfier tyre.