My Holdsworth special 1971......

[Collier_mk2]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in but that frame looks way more modern than 1951. I'd guess at more like late 70's

They had the email with these same pics and the matching frame and fork numbers when they confirmed 1951 superb in poly gold.... so I’m going to have to go with the experts opinion I’m afraid lol

 

[vcballbat]

Re:

Maybe somebody needs to go to Specsavers and has confused a 5&8 and it's a 1981 as the short Campag dropouts, fork crown, key hole lugs and cable guides suggest. ..the rear brake bridge looks Continental. What thread is the bottom bracket and seat post size would help.

 

[allenh]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in but that frame looks way more modern than 1951. I'd guess at more like late 70's

They had the email with these same pics and the matching frame and fork numbers when they confirmed 1951 superb in poly gold.... so I’m going to have to go with the experts opinion I’m afraid lol

Fair enough, I do hope I'm proved wrong and agree if you can get that in writing from them then that's all you can ask but it would be nice to see a picture of one to compare it against because something about it still has me unconvinced, it just looks way too 70's to me.

Early 50's is definitely not my era I'll admit but the two later 50's frames I have look very different from yours in every way and yours looks much more like the many 70's and 80's frames I have, the ends look like Campag 1010B which are 70's which would tie in with the Portacatena drillings, the lugs, rear brake bridge, fork crown and everything about it look much much later to me.

I have one here that I can't identify but I think is a Geoffrey Butler, it looks very much like yours, also has a 4 digit number on both the forks and frame but is most definitely 70's and this ones not unique in my collection as there must be 10 in my garage just like it from a range of builders, so sorry if i'm out of turn here but hopefully you can see why yours just doesn't look 50's to me.

Either way good luck with it and it looks a nicely built frame so build it up into something nice, and as you'll probably find moving forward frame identification of small volume frames without distinguishing details like particular treatments to things like seat stays or engravings can be almost impossible.

 

[mdvineng]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

Here's the rear drop out from velobase http://velobase.com/ViewFramePart.aspx? ... &AbsPos=18

 

[Collier_mk2]

Re: Re:

Maybe somebody needs to go to Specsavers and has confused a 5&8 and it's a 1981 as the short Campag dropouts, fork crown, key hole lugs and cable guides suggest. ..the rear brake bridge looks Continental. What thread is the bottom bracket and seat post size would help.

Mate I’ve gotta go with what the shops saying,would you listen to your mate over the professional of your product.....rear dropouts can be changed easily as can cable guides be added in a restoration/modification the records can’t be wrong,the forks on my Ribble have the same detail as this frames lugs as has Mercian and major Nichols frame I looked at
On the phone the guy was adamant wrap over rear stays etc and 22” and the matching frame and fork numbers definitely matched with records we could go round and round but it’s to sunny out so I’m going to repaint it as per records re logo it but build it up with later Campagnolo set I’ve got so can use it daily

 

[Collier_mk2]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

Here's the rear drop out from velobase http://velobase.com/ViewFramePart.aspx? ... &AbsPos=18

Yes the rear drop outs that can be changed whilst having a previous restoration/modification
Guy on the phone said they could literally do what ever I wanted to update the frame to modern specs.....so it probably has in the past.....

 

[Midlife]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

Not sure those cutout lugs were available in 1951 either.

 

[Collier_mk2]

Re:

So what I’m gathering from all the bespoke frame builders on here no doubt ex Ellis Briggs employes,is that Ellis Briggs have looked at the photos of frame forks and frame numbers got me to measure the bike for further reference to their hand written records and then they got it wrong Each frame could be made to each customers wish on lugs dropouts cable eyes what ever you want paint etc at the time of manufacture....so you can have a bespoke bike to your desire...and at a later date have said bike modernised with later drop outs etc have stuff brazed on or ground off to the owners or new multiple owners over time to take later running gear so it ends up not as it left a factory like a lot of older bikes and cars
If you look at some mercians stellas and Major Nichols they have similar lug designs etc but not frame numbers and dimensions that match records,
I’ll leave it there guys thanks for the input and negativity

 

[Jonny69]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

Mmmmmm, I've got to say I'm not convinced it's 1951 either! Neither those lugs nor the dropouts were available in 1951. The forks are way later than 50s. The over bottom bracket cable guides were typically an early 70s things. I'm pretty sure someone has made a mistake there.

Either way, it's a nice looking frame. You do have something nice there.

 

[Collier_mk2]

Re: Frame identification help....I know I know

Mmmmmm, I've got to say I'm not convinced it's 1951 either! Neither those lugs nor the dropouts were available in 1951. The forks are way later than 50s. The over bottom bracket cable guides were typically an early 70s things. I'm pretty sure someone has made a mistake there.

Either way, it's a nice looking frame. You do have something nice there.

Cheers but again these bikes get adapted over time to stay current look on there site they show you replacing whole stays brake bridges brazing on cable runners etc any way I’m happy