Is there a market for reproduction parts?

[hookooekoo]

I'm sure it's possible to make small quantities of CNC parts for the retro crowd and cover the cost or turn a small profit. Quite likely the viability would depend on the level of automation available on the machine tools used. But maybe it could eventually turn into something much bigger. I suppose it depends whether there's a market for it, and how much the people involved like their current jobs and remuneration. If I recall correctly, the founders of Hope Tech were people who rode trials (motor) bikes or moto cross bikes. They simply wanted to give their pedal powered mountain bikes the same type of disc brakes as their motor bikes had. Having the good fortune to work in a machine shop and have access to machine tools, they set about making some disc brakes for their mountain bikes. From small acorns, mighty oaks grow!

As for the ethics of making repro parts, there are many threads on here where people gripe about the cost of genuine retro parts. Provided the legalities are observed, and trade marks and trade names are not infringed, then I don't have an issue with it. In fact, I wouldn't be bothered whether they were marked as repro or not, but that's because I believe in free markets. Then again, I don't own any old Ringle stuff, so I don't have anything invested in maintaining resale values.

 

[2manyoranges]

Ah HOPE ... well....I was above Patterdale and two of the HOPE boys were on their carbon hope-bedecked enduro rigs. When I say ‘on’ they were in fact carrying at that point. And for the next half hour. Real hike-a-bike.
We had a really good jaw, and they indeed said ‘...look...the business model simply is ‘we want it..and if we do a good job then others will want the stuff too’....and they do...’. Hurrah!

 

[Hotwheels.]

Upshot...if machinist x produces exact copies of component y, and they really are indistinguishable (ignoring the licensing issues) then I would not treat them as second-class, despite the difference in provenance.

So where does this leave John Grafton reproducing his product lines again to exact 90's specs (and selling out of pretty much everything!), are they to be classed as reproduction or original parts???
Yes they are OEM, but are a reproduction of 90's parts.....can they be classed as originals as they weren't produced in the 90's, are not NOS and in fact brand new? It was suggested by some that he too subtly mark the new parts to distinguish from the old originals but he chose not to do so.
P.s. I think it's splendid that the big man is making parts again, this is purely for the debate. #graftonrocks

 

[mk one]

So where does this leave John Grafton reproducing his product lines again to exact 90's specs (and selling out of pretty much everything!), are they to be classed as reproduction or original parts???
Yes they are OEM, but are a reproduction of 90's parts.....can they be classed as originals as they weren't produced in the 90's, are not NOS and in fact brand new? It was suggested by some that he too subtly mark the new parts to distinguish from the old originals but he chose not to do so.
P.s. I think it's splendid that the big man is making parts again, this is purely for the debate. #graftonrocks

i suppose they are original Grafton products though, not someone trying to copy them. But, you could also say they are reproductions. How long between production runs before they become reproductions?

 

[Rampage]

Been there, done this.

Most stuff was more hassle than it was worth, after you've made the parts (or had to deal with another company who don't always do what you are expecting). You then need to anodise / zinc plate / blacken. I've had problems with all of these process's. An anodising company in Manchester messed up with a lot of expensive jig parts I had made. They came out with a load of bollocks about why it had gone wrong, luckily I knew my stuff and fairly quickly he decided this was a conversation for his manager. The manager came and very quickly his eyes glazed over when explaining things to him. They agreed to do them again, which was a result but there was the worry that stripping them and re-anodising again would make the tolerances too far out, so I could still be way out of pocket!
You need to know process's inside out, and explain in very simple terms what you are expecting.
Of all the stuff I've had made, I've been unhappy with more than 90% that has been outsourced. From lying sales people at companies ("yes, the water jet blasting will have as good a finish as milling") to products being sent that are different to the drawings you've sent them. It's very heart breaking plus your losing money. In things other than bikes I have had parts made in China, the first time they used a poor quality aluminium (didn't anodise very well, despite me specifying the grade), also a EDM'd slot was out of tolerance. The second time the parts should have been the same as the first time, but they were different when they arrived and needed reworking, which almost made then not worthwhile. The third time (different company) all contact ceased after I paid!

You need to enjoy this sort of thing. I'm always excited at work when something I've designed arrives, but I still make the occasional mistake and something isn't as expected.

I'm currently making some parts in my own workshop but this is to pay for repairs to my Lathe (new motor, VFD, control panel) and general workshop stuff, it won't made any money!

If you want to know anything else, let me know.

 

[M-Power]

If high end repro parts eg a Ringle stem & skewers were made cheaply to original spec, would people still want them on their bikes ? The newly made Grafton stuff is still expensive, especially with import on top but there is still a strong demand for it. Is premium priced exclusivity really a bad thing ?

 

[Tootyred]

I think it all boils down to price and demand.

There's a guy on here who turns out some fantastic ringle stuff etc, but i would suggest its out of reach of most peoples pockets! Certainly is out of mine! Not in any way knocking him, in fact hats off to him for the investment and drive to do it.

His prices highlight the major problem; even with cnc machining producing parts can involve lots a time consuming processes, in and out of house. The result is expense.

The other way to do retro parts is like the jokers selling " reproduction" deore xt II seatposts on ebay a time back........other than the sticker, it had no resemblance to the post it was supposed to be other than......well.....it was a seatpost. They wanted serious money and im sure some people unknowingly fell for it.

I dont want a market flooded with cheap, poor copies of past parts, it will only serve in the longterm to de-value the originals in peoples minds.

The only way ive seen this work, was with some honda racing parts, where people commit to buying the end product as they need or want it and jointly pay for development and production costs. It takes away the profit motive, keeps the parts more affordable and guarantees a market.

SO.......WHICH PART WE ALL HAVING!

 

[madjh]

For me doesn't work. Brands of the 90s were in the scene and when you see a proshift or avid Tri align, memories come back but if it is a repro ... Memories are blurred.

I like the idea of resurrect old brands by the hand of owners that bring to us top quality stuff, but I don't like the idea of a Chinese factory doing For example, kooka cranks because They only do for a profit and in a couple of years the will star to put logos even in 20£ crank sets to sell more.

No easy the world of repros. Sometimes it is necessary but not always.

 

[2manyoranges]

I see the last 30 years as bringing trickle down innovation to mass production - usually a good thing - and there are some real moments in that process where the original item was a really wonderful thing. Refabricating those is probably just a labour of love.

 

[pw_pw_la]

I think there's a market, for sure.

SRP are obviously proving this to an extent.

But the thing is... Where do you start, and with what? (I like the idea of crowdsourced components; where a group of people pay into the product in advance to get a certain number produced. That I can see working, especially within the community here.)

For with regards to repro products: I personally don't mind the idea of it for smaller things (skewers; bottle cages; seat posts, even). But the idea of a repro crankset, or stem, or hubs, or brakes, or anything bigger really, just doesn't appeal to me.

But that might be because I enjoy the hunt, and working to smarten something back up, more than anything other than just riding the bike in the first place!

Now, what I really would love to see (and it's there already with Grafton coming back, and with what Paul and White Industries continue to produce) is more people putting the R&D, money and effort into making something NEW that's retro inspired, rather than just a repro of something older. You don't need to reinvent the wheel, but I would love to give my money to a well thought-out, nicely marketed and packaged, good quality CNC component company. There's 30 years of rerfefrence to draw from and an audience who I think would be into it. I personally wouldn't mind a newer company that made smaller components that gave me the same feel as the older companies; not that I'm suggesting that's necessarily easy to do.

Because it's not just the products that Ringle or Grafton or Marinovative or Mr Crud or X-Lite or Syncros were making, it was the whole ethos and aesthetic behind those companies.

But there is a market there, I really do think. You just have to look a the shortages in bike shops, and the increased prices on the secondhand market to know people want this sort of stuff. It just needs the right person with deep enough pockets, with enough experience and history to do it right.

Which is, of course, a whole other thing!