Hub/Drum Brake Bikes

[GrahamJohnWallace]

The Repack rider's and the Post Office loved hub or drum brakes. The Dutch still do.
They used to be popular with tandem owners and with all-weather mountain-bikers. However, nowadays they are mostly found on work-bikes and bicycle-sharing-scheme bicycles.


Have you owned a bike with hub/drum brakes? Maybe an old Klunker or a Tracker-bike? Do you have any pictures or anecdotes?
What's your experience of using this type of brake, both positive and negative?
What are the advantages and disadvantages when compared to rim or disk brakes?
Disk-brakes the most popular form of hub-brake but how durable do you find them? Would there be any advantage in an enclosed disk-brake?

My own experience of them varies.
Some weigh a ton and hardly work at all. But, I have found a few designs that work very well in all conditions without any maintenance.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

I live in an area where the trails can get very muddy and so choose which bike to ride based on the trail conditions.

When the conditions are not muddy I often use a bike fitted with disk-brakes. Drum-brakes, being enclosed, prevents the mud and grit from geting onto the braking surfaces and shoes, so brake shoes last a very long time. My 1988 Highpath is currently on its second set of pads despite being my most ridden and abused bike.

Another advantage of drums is that water and dirt has to defy the centrifugal forces of the rotating drum before it can get to the wheel-bearings. So despite being ridden through crud for more than thirty years, Highpath is only on its second set of wheel bearings.

Because I avoid riding my disk (and rim-brake bikes) in the mud, I do not know how they perform in such conditions but have never had to replace any disk-brake pads since I started using them in 2005.

My reason for avoiding using disk-brakes in mud is based on stories I've heard of bikes wearing out their pads during races. Also, I don't like to create unnecessary maintenance jobs for myself. My ideal bike is one that needs as little after-ride maintenance as possible.

No matter how bad the trail conditions, I only maintain my bike's drive-trains and usually clean the bikes once a year. I find that using mudguards is remarkably effective at keeping the dirt and mud off the frame and components. I also use gaiters on my forks and shocks and use self-amalgamating tape to protect suspension pivots.

 

[Mickeyspinn]

I bought a postie bike with 90 mm sturmey archer steel drum hubs purely for the wheelset to go on my pipsqueak boardtrack build. Ending up riding that postie bike for about a year it weighed a ton probably near 45 lb ......but it had a charm to its ride. Always stopped me ok ! Completely silent brake and absolutely zero maintenance.
I really like the way theres no initial biting grab as a disc brake,they just give more and more until you've stopped ! Kinda soft and friendly!
By no means a racers brake but horses for courses they have their place. Ideal for all weather ... No gritty rim brake paste,no hot and bothered disc brake squeals. sure they are a bit hefty however at least the weight is around the axle.
I've since bought a set of slightly lighter ones being 70mm alloy and sturmey again for a klunker type thing we'll have see how they do...
Have noticed when stone cold not much happens on the initial first use but once the heats in them they're ok you definitely want to be on the brake earlier you just keep peddling till later if that makes sense!
What drum brakes have you had?

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

I really like the way theres no initial biting grab as a disc brake,they just give more and more until you've stopped ! Kinda soft and friendly!
By no means a racers brake but horses for courses they have their place. Ideal for all weather ... No gritty rim brake paste,no hot and bothered disc brake squeals. sure they are a bit hefty however at least the weight is around the axle.

That's pretty well my experience; extremely progressive, reliable and quiet braking. With an light weight alloy drum, the rotating weight can be very low as most of the weight is in the axle and the non-rotating brake-shoe plate.

I've since bought a set of slightly lighter ones being 70mm alloy and sturmey again for a klunker type thing we'll have see how they do...

I notice that the Gary Fisher made Klunker brought over from the US by journalist Richard Grant was fitted with a 70mm Leleu drum-brake. This is the same brake that Geoff Apps fitted to his Cleland bikes. In this video they say that the this brake does not work. So it must be badly adjusted or the brake-shoes are contaminated with oil or grease. 1978 UK Klunker (Video section that shows Leleu rear brake is form 18 mins on.)

Have noticed when stone cold not much happens on the initial first use but once the heats in them they're ok you definitely want to be on the brake earlier you just keep peddling till later if that makes sense!

In my experience all drum-brake shoes take time to bed in. Less so with the Lelue type as they have a mechanism to correct for uneven brake-shoe wear.

What drum brakes have you had?

I started in 1984 with some newly released 70mm, alloy, Sturmey Archer Elites. (I haven't tried the 90mm variant)
In 85 started using 70mm Lelue alloy drums.
In 88 I bought my Highpath fitted with bespoke 80mm Mk3 floating-cam drums.
Around 2006 I fitted some 70mm Shimano Roller-Cam brakes to a full-suspension Giant NRS
More recently I have been using some 80mm Shimano Roller-Cam brakes.

 

[Mickeyspinn]

That's pretty well my experience; extremely progressive, reliable and quiet braking. With an light weight alloy drum, the rotating weight can be very low as most of the weight is in the axle and the non-rotating brake-shoe plate.

I notice that the Gary Fisher made Klunker brought over from the US by journalist Richard Grant was fitted with a 70mm Leleu drum-brake. This is the same brake that Geoff Apps fitted to his bikes. In this video they say that the this brake does not work. So it must be badly adjusted or the brake-shoes are contaminated with oil or grease. 1978 UK Klunker

In my experience all drum-brake shoes take time to bed in. Less so with the Lelue type as they have a mechanism to correct for uneven brake-shoe wear.

I started in 1984 with some newly released 70mm, alloy, Sturmey Archer Elites. (I haven't tried the 90mm variant)
In 85 started using 70mm Lelue alloy drums.
In 88 I bought my Highpath fitted with bespoke 80mm Mk3 floating-cam drums.
Around 2006 I fitted some 70mm Shimano Roller-Cam brakes to a full-suspension Giant NRS
More recently I have been using some 80mm Shimano Roller-Cam brakes.

Ahh so you've been rolling to a different drum beat for a while!
So your quite happy with 70 mm sturmey s then?
Been having doubts wether they're a bit too small,however I presume they'll warm up pretty quick! All I've done maintenance wise on the 90s is clean the drums and shoes with brake cleaner definitely noticed more grunt after that. I think your probably right most people's opinions of drums are probably based on grease contamination...very easy to do with mucky hands! As they say a little oil goes a long way
I need to look into leleu...infact I think I need to explore the whole drum brake world a bit more!
I'd class them as a great choice for a randonneur, combined with an internal gear hub I rate them.
Your dead right about the weight too... actually very little rotating mass to speak of probably about the same as a disc?

How does the drums affect full suss? Do you get less or a more progressive initial loading/compression of the suspension?

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Ahh so you've been rolling to a different drum beat for a while!
So your quite happy with 70 mm sturmey s then?

The 70mm Sturmey's I used were nicely made but poorly designed and any dust or water that gets inside is trapped. Also, the brakes used to fade as more dust from brake-shoe wear built up inside. Instead of being low-maintenance, you had to take them apart and remove the dust. I haven't used Sturmey's since the late 1980's, so they may have improved since.

I need to look into leleu...infact I think I need to explore the whole drum brake world a bit more!

The French refer to them as 'Lelue-type' brakes and they come in a range of designs and sizes mostly intended for use on mopeds. However, the 70mm ones I am referring to are specifically made for bicycles.

All Lelues have a patented mechanism that mimics mechanically what a hydraulic drum brake does in equally dividing the braking force between the two brake-shoes. This is important in that the leading and trailing shoes wear at different rates and, without a mechanism to compensate, you end up with only one shoe doing all the work. Using old-school long brake-levers it is quite easy to lock-up a Lelue. I remember one rider inadvertently sending himself over the handlebars whilst demonstrating how effective they were. The Lelue mechanism was the inspiration behind the Highpath 'floating-cam' design, though Highpath used a different mechanism.

Lelues are simply made, functional and intended to do a good reliable job. For instance, unlike their aluminium drums, the shoe plates were made from plated steel. Originally they didn't come with sealed bearings. Though sealed bearings can be fitted and do come as standard on some more modern variants.

Here is a video that shows Lelues being used in an MTB trials competition. The bike with the Lelues won, and though the brakes no doubt played their part, the win was mainly down to the skill of the rider:

How does the drums affect full suss? Do you get less or a more progressive initial loading/compression of the suspension?

There's little difference to using disks apart from the drums being less powerful but much more progressive. I do have a suspension lockout on the front forks, but I don't really need it because with drums, there is less chance of the front end diving unexpectedly.

 

[Synthiaks]

That Wendover Bash a very interesting video....what bike is it with the Lelues? very long headtube.

I have a very well used Saracen Conquest converted to drums front and rear pretty much from new.....they're not great, but probably need setting up again properly.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

That Wendover Bash a very interesting video....what bike is it with the Lelues? very long headtube.

The bike is a Mk1 Cleland Dingbat with its long headtube, high bottom-bracket and 3" wide rear tyre.
It is using a rear Lelue brake on the front as this makes for a stronger front wheel than using the narrower Lelue front brake.

I have a very well used Saracen Conquest converted to drums front and rear pretty much from new.....they're not great, but probably need setting up again properly.

I remember that Saracen used to make a red MTB with Sturmey Archer drum-brakes in the mid 80's. Though this may have been a 'city-bike'?
I can tell from the pristine rim braking surface that the brakes have been on the bike for a long time.

If its well used, and still on original shoes then the leading shoe, which provides most of the braking force, will have worn and by now the braking will all be done by the trailing shoe. This happens because the rotation of the drum pushes the leading shoe into the drum (An effect known as self-servoing or self-energizing that has the effect of magnifying the braking force). In contrast the trailing shoe is pushed away from the drum and so does not self-servo.

This uneven wear also happens with a Lelue-type brake, but there is a mechanism that maintains the self-servoing properties of the leading shoe.

The easiest way to restore the braking of your Conquest would be to put in a new pair of shoes. Though once bedded in, the shoes would proceed to wear unevenly and the braking effect would slowly degrade over time. If your shoes are new, then it may be dust inside causing the problem. A quick clear out of the dust and maybe the filling off of any surface brake-shoe glaze may sort the problem.

 

[Synthiaks]

Many thanks, I suspect they may be the original shoes...but will also check for dust & wear prior to ordering anything.

Its definitely a conquest, the adaptation can be seen in areas where the guides have been brazed on were re-painted....theres a sticker on the frame indicating the work was done by Arthur Caygill cycles. the rer hub is an 85 date code so assume it was done just after purchase.

Wonder what rim/tyre was on the rear of the Cleland, wasn't aware 3" wide tyres for MTB were around then so off a assume moped?.....must have been a useful tool, wonder where it is now....

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Its definitely a conquest, the adaptation can be seen in areas where the guides have been brazed on were re-painted....theres a sticker on the frame indicating the work was done by Arthur Caygill cycles. the rer hub is an 85 date code so assume it was done just after purchase.

My 70mm 'Elite' hubs were bought and fitted in the spring of 1985 not long after SA introduced them. I believe that they were the first alloy hub-brakes that SA made. SA did make some Leleu-type, self-centering cam variants of the 'Elite'. However, due to an error the prototypes had a tendency to over self-servo and lock up. At this point SA lost interest and abandoned the project as the ordinary 'Elites' were selling ok and worked perfectly well when new.

Wonder what rim/tyre was on the rear of the Cleland, wasn't aware 3" wide tyres for MTB were around then so off a assume moped?.....must have been a useful tool, wonder where it is now....

The Cleland Dingbat, like the other Clelands used Nokia Hakkapeliitta snow-tyres from Finland.

These are the wheel and tyre sizes it used:

• Rear: 550b Rigida alloy rim: 65-484 Nokia Trials tyre
• Front: 600b Rigida alloy rim: 44-531 Nokia Hakkapeliitta tyre

At 65mm the would have been narrower than 3" but fatter than 2.5". It may have been a moped tyre, though the Finn's had some unusual snow-tyre sizes to enable Finnish cyclists to ride safely through their long winters. With a fat low-pressure tyre and most of the rider's weight on the rear the Dingbat was a formidable bike in soft or muddy ground conditions. The narrower, lightly-weighted front tyre would either roll over terrain or slice through it in search of firmer ground below. This is similar to the way that tractors cope with gloopy mud, sand etc.

Geoff Apps said that this bike remained with has ex wife after their divorce.