HELP: Vintage Claud Butler Frame Identification
- Thread starter Kona_Jake85
- Start date
Kona_Jake85
Dirt Disciple
Ok thanks for the explanation. I'll take some better 'close-up' pictures of my bike showing the tops of the stays and upload them.
Hi Kona_Jake85
I'll stick my neck out and say 046383 is a Majestic. (Scrimshaw's prediction dates to later 1982.) As discussed with PeachyPM may be a repaint or perhaps built late in '82 as an '83 model of which no catalogue has surfaced.
Your Reynolds fork decals are later versions than those on '82 catalogue pics and is perhaps more evidence for an '82 repaint. Although... end of '82 was right at time when the change in decals took place. Here's HLloyd's Reynolds timeline:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1301/ ... 9566035148
In year '82 catalogue the Cresta and Majestic appear to be only models without brazed on BB cable guides. So this narrows the field as yours appears to have a clip on DT at BB.
The kit on your bike (although not definable) appears to favour the 1982 catalogue Majestic over the Cresta. (LF as opposed to SF hubs, chromoplastic as opposed to Bluemel mudguards and a 36T as opposed to 40T small chain ring.) Also your bike has same model rack as pictured in catalogue whereas Cresta has none and when comparing 82 and 84 catalogues I am convinced the '82 rack is not attached to stay braze-ons.
Catalogue pic of a 1982 Majestic seems to have a longer chamfered stay cap (as yours appears in decal photo) than PeachyPM's 84's shorter cap. Suggests a change in design in '83 or '84?
I did a bit of digging and came up with this Flickr pic and album of a Majestic (03X50
purchased in October 1981 and whose owner I corresponded with 4 years ago during the great Holdsworthy/Claud serial unravelling. This date and number despite (missing a digit) fits in Dave's prediction for 1981. It has features as yours. In the album, owner describes with pics how he repainted the frame a couple times and added improvements with braze-ons and kit. He is certainly attached to his Majestic.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sjromaine ... 342146278/
Doug
I'll stick my neck out and say 046383 is a Majestic. (Scrimshaw's prediction dates to later 1982.) As discussed with PeachyPM may be a repaint or perhaps built late in '82 as an '83 model of which no catalogue has surfaced.
Your Reynolds fork decals are later versions than those on '82 catalogue pics and is perhaps more evidence for an '82 repaint. Although... end of '82 was right at time when the change in decals took place. Here's HLloyd's Reynolds timeline:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1301/ ... 9566035148
In year '82 catalogue the Cresta and Majestic appear to be only models without brazed on BB cable guides. So this narrows the field as yours appears to have a clip on DT at BB.
The kit on your bike (although not definable) appears to favour the 1982 catalogue Majestic over the Cresta. (LF as opposed to SF hubs, chromoplastic as opposed to Bluemel mudguards and a 36T as opposed to 40T small chain ring.) Also your bike has same model rack as pictured in catalogue whereas Cresta has none and when comparing 82 and 84 catalogues I am convinced the '82 rack is not attached to stay braze-ons.
Catalogue pic of a 1982 Majestic seems to have a longer chamfered stay cap (as yours appears in decal photo) than PeachyPM's 84's shorter cap. Suggests a change in design in '83 or '84?
I did a bit of digging and came up with this Flickr pic and album of a Majestic (03X50
purchased in October 1981 and whose owner I corresponded with 4 years ago during the great Holdsworthy/Claud serial unravelling. This date and number despite (missing a digit) fits in Dave's prediction for 1981. It has features as yours. In the album, owner describes with pics how he repainted the frame a couple times and added improvements with braze-ons and kit. He is certainly attached to his Majestic.https://www.flickr.com/photos/sjromaine ... 342146278/
Doug
Southcoast
Dirt Disciple
I have a 83 Holdsworth Elan that I purchased new in early 83. It has the short seatstay caps. The Shop ordered it for me, as the 82 model they had in stock had a small defect.
Kona_Jake85
Dirt Disciple
Thanks for all of your feedback I appreciate it. I've uploaded a few close up pictures showing frame and paint details.
I've managed to speak with the seller on eBay who I purchased and collected the bike from last year. He couldn't shed much light on the bike as it was his brothers but finds it doubtful that the frame was ever re-painted as his brother owned the bike from new and it wasn't used much.
Doug, thanks for the explanation about the Majestic and for the Reynolds and Flickr links. I like the album pics! Really interesting.
PeachyPM thanks for re-checking and uploading the photos.
Cheers,
Jake
I've managed to speak with the seller on eBay who I purchased and collected the bike from last year. He couldn't shed much light on the bike as it was his brothers but finds it doubtful that the frame was ever re-painted as his brother owned the bike from new and it wasn't used much.
Doug, thanks for the explanation about the Majestic and for the Reynolds and Flickr links. I like the album pics! Really interesting.
PeachyPM thanks for re-checking and uploading the photos.
Cheers,
Jake
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Well.. not entirely 101% clear without a 1983 catalogue, but I'm leaning toward a 1983 Majestic.
The Suntour "semi" forged dropouts (as present on your frame) are specified as standard on Majestic for 1984 but are not described as such for 1982. Coincidentally, the '83 Holdsworth models catalogue is actually present on Kilgariff site and does list for the first time the Suntour dropout on the '83 Avanti model. (Hard to see dropout detail on '81 Flickr example as closeup is fuzzy.) HLloyds' Reynolds timeline describes your style decals as coming in to use post 1982 and are different than decals shown on 82 catalogue, yet are present in 1984 catalogue - again pointing to a 1983 model. History from seller is strongly suggestive of never being repainted, so black very well could have been colour for 1983. Having said that I have seen examples of buyers requesting a custom color and being obliged by factory - so perhaps was a special request. Certainly they advertised doing such for higher end models as Mistral on up.
Your serial plotting to late 1982 on Dave Scrimshaw's prediction would not be unusual for a 1983 model as next years models often began production in the fall of the year. His prediction table has had several revisions, the last being done after the number of serials had reached 600ish last year and after a lot of discussion and thought. There may be another revision in future but I think it is presently pretty darn good. Dave does not claim 100% accuracy and emphasizes prediction should be used as a guide with frame details taken in to account. Anyway, for your bike to have been actually built in 1983, prediction would only need to be off by a couple months.
So... I think your 1983 Majestic is likely all original kit (except seat) and it should be safe to leave it black. Maybe it looks worse in person but in pics paint and decals actually look good to me. Luckily, black is probably easiest colour to touch up, if one decided to go that route. Some would say it simply needs replacement of consumables, cleaning up and waxing. I'd say whatever floats your boat! Nice bike.
The Suntour "semi" forged dropouts (as present on your frame) are specified as standard on Majestic for 1984 but are not described as such for 1982. Coincidentally, the '83 Holdsworth models catalogue is actually present on Kilgariff site and does list for the first time the Suntour dropout on the '83 Avanti model. (Hard to see dropout detail on '81 Flickr example as closeup is fuzzy.) HLloyds' Reynolds timeline describes your style decals as coming in to use post 1982 and are different than decals shown on 82 catalogue, yet are present in 1984 catalogue - again pointing to a 1983 model. History from seller is strongly suggestive of never being repainted, so black very well could have been colour for 1983. Having said that I have seen examples of buyers requesting a custom color and being obliged by factory - so perhaps was a special request. Certainly they advertised doing such for higher end models as Mistral on up.
Your serial plotting to late 1982 on Dave Scrimshaw's prediction would not be unusual for a 1983 model as next years models often began production in the fall of the year. His prediction table has had several revisions, the last being done after the number of serials had reached 600ish last year and after a lot of discussion and thought. There may be another revision in future but I think it is presently pretty darn good. Dave does not claim 100% accuracy and emphasizes prediction should be used as a guide with frame details taken in to account. Anyway, for your bike to have been actually built in 1983, prediction would only need to be off by a couple months.
So... I think your 1983 Majestic is likely all original kit (except seat) and it should be safe to leave it black. Maybe it looks worse in person but in pics paint and decals actually look good to me. Luckily, black is probably easiest colour to touch up, if one decided to go that route. Some would say it simply needs replacement of consumables, cleaning up and waxing. I'd say whatever floats your boat! Nice bike.
Peachy!
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Totally concur with Doug, Black should be an easy touch up, if original it’s rare enough to warrant keeping the paint and that odd combo of tube transfers. (I had my ice blue Maj re-sprayed but they are a dime a dozen)
Chris.
Ps don't forget to post on dwscrimshaw's Holdsworth frame numbers thread with a descent photo and the frame number for the record list.
Chris.
Ps don't forget to post on dwscrimshaw's Holdsworth frame numbers thread with a descent photo and the frame number for the record list.
Kona_Jake85
Dirt Disciple
Apologies for the long delay in replying to your posts.
Thanks again Doug for sharing your knowledge and advice, I really appreciate it. It's good to hear about the history of the CB and Holdsworth frames from that era. Shame about the lack of an '83 CB catalogue but your detailed points about the 1983 CB Majestic sound very promising! Yes, the decals are all in very good condition. I'll definitely look into touching the black paint work up once I've cleaned the rest of the bike. Thanks for the compliment. Cheers, Jake
Chris, thanks again for your advice, I will post some finished pictures once my bikes all restored. I'll post on dwscrimshaw's Holdsworth frame numbers thread too! Cheers, Jake
Thanks again Doug for sharing your knowledge and advice, I really appreciate it. It's good to hear about the history of the CB and Holdsworth frames from that era. Shame about the lack of an '83 CB catalogue but your detailed points about the 1983 CB Majestic sound very promising! Yes, the decals are all in very good condition. I'll definitely look into touching the black paint work up once I've cleaned the rest of the bike. Thanks for the compliment. Cheers, Jake
Chris, thanks again for your advice, I will post some finished pictures once my bikes all restored. I'll post on dwscrimshaw's Holdsworth frame numbers thread too! Cheers, Jake
