All my knowledge is retro - where to start?

[Dapperton]

So in the 90s I used to be pretty serious about mountain biking, worked for years in a bike shop, could easily build a bike from scratch (inc hubs, wheels) etc. Had a Grisley Wasatch pretty similar to this one viewtopic.php?f=6&t=344809 - but I had mostly XT/XTR groupset (first gen), pace rings, mavic rims etc. Had it down to about 25lbs - that bike was my life. But then I moved to London and it gathered dust, sold it about 10 years ago.

Now I'm in Bristol and very near countryside, and I want to pick this back up again but all of my knowledge (which was extensive) stops in the late 90s so I thought this might be a good place to start. I need a bike, something good for singletrack - maybe even full suspension, but nothing over £1000 - ideally half that. I'm obviously not bothered about going for something modern - happy to get something older up to scratch, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could provide me with a few pointers:

- How much has the tech moved on? Sure everyone's got disc brakes now and carbon fibre is more rampant, but is a modern bike really that much better? I know suspension has probably come on somewhat - but are there anythings that are must haves now?

- Back in the day the bike I wanted was a proflex, and the bike I really really wanted was an AMP - I literally used to dream about these... Now, is it worth getting an AMP considering they stopped making them years ago - I'm just wondering how those complex front fork linkages hold up, and I know they were cutting edge 25 years ago, but how do they compare now?

 

[My_Teenage_Self]

Unless you're racing, why not get the Amp or the proflex you've always wanted?

£1k would get you both!

 

[2manyoranges]

Dapperton - I was in the same position five years ago. I am 62, and started out HARD at the outset of mtb in the UK - the Brighton scene was huge at the time...I had just started work after university and could afford the Marins and Cannondales just being imported at that time. Same as you, the building culminated in ti and other exotica, including an AMP B3. I sold that this Summer. More on that in a moment. Now....roll forward to 2015...I had a barn here full of Oranges, Bontrager, AMP, Marin etc. And for sure I rode them, and saw no need to do anything other than ride. I saw nothing wrong with 26 inch wheels and 69 degree head angles. Then I built a sub 9kg bike for my son..and he thrived on it. I got back into building. First a COTIC for the Grom, and then a Ragley Marley. Still 26 inch. When I built the Marley, he took the bike down the road for a test, and came back smiling a VERY broad smile. I wondered why he was waxing lyrical about the bike, so threw my leg over it. And I smiled too. Responsive, fast, rigid, light. It FELT different. It had a slack head angle, short back end and I had put a 45mm stem on it to help get the reach right. It got me thinking. I bought some mags for the first time in years, and began to swot up on geometry. Long, low, slack seemed to dominate.

Next, a COTIC in medium for me. When COTIC said small. But I did the measurements and knew that a longer frame with a shorter stem would work. I am 5-7 and proprtionately built. Comparing my favourite 1996 Orange C16R 15 inch with the medium COTIC was chalk and cheese. The Orange now seemed terrifying. Brilliant as it always had been at climbing and distance, but a real handful in singletrack and downhill. COTIC got the vote - by a country mile. Next was a new medium Ragley Marley 27.5 wheel frame for the Grom - 300gbp and a 1000gbp build in the end, 150 forks up front. A Ragley mmmBop medium for me, 170 up front - really slack and long, 27.5 wheel. Amazing bike. Then a new geometry DH bike for my son, and a 29er Transition Sentinel for me. Oh..and we made up some jump bikes. You can see what's happened. This is NOT fashion. I love my retro bikes. They are full of memories. But for out-and-out performance, they are way way back. I train hard, and I still do distance and technical trails and bike parks. The scene has changed, the riding has changed, and the performance of the new bikes has gone through the roof. I was sad to see my B3 go, but it was going to a great home on the South Downs, and I have moved on. You can build a Ragley for the budget you suggest - a Marley or mmmBop - the performance will stun you. 35mm stem, 27.5 wheels, wide rims (I use 35 internal WTBs) and 140-160 forks.

 

[al-onestare]

So in the 90s I used to be pretty serious about mountain biking, worked for years in a bike shop, could easily build a bike from scratch (inc hubs, wheels) etc. Had a Grisley Wasatch pretty similar to this one viewtopic.php?f=6&t=344809 - but I had mostly XT/XTR groupset (first gen), pace rings, mavic rims etc. Had it down to about 25lbs - that bike was my life. But then I moved to London and it gathered dust, sold it about 10 years ago.

Now I'm in Bristol and very near countryside, and I want to pick this back up again but all of my knowledge (which was extensive) stops in the late 90s so I thought this might be a good place to start. I need a bike, something good for singletrack - maybe even full suspension, but nothing over £1000 - ideally half that. I'm obviously not bothered about going for something modern - happy to get something older up to scratch, but I'd really appreciate it if someone could provide me with a few pointers:

- How much has the tech moved on? Sure everyone's got disc brakes now and carbon fibre is more rampant, but is a modern bike really that much better? I know suspension has probably come on somewhat - but are there anythings that are must haves now?

- Back in the day the bike I wanted was a proflex, and the bike I really really wanted was an AMP - I literally used to dream about these... Now, is it worth getting an AMP considering they stopped making them years ago - I'm just wondering how those complex front fork linkages hold up, and I know they were cutting edge 25 years ago, but how do they compare now?

To your questions:

1. A lot.
2. You'll end up spending at least a grand on a decent one and getting it to the spec you desire, especially in today's mental market, and if you did go through and finish it, would you ride it? Far too many bikes on here sit as garage queens to be sold onto someone else who'll turn it into their garage queen and so on...

My recommendation is think about the type of riding you want to do, then think about the type of bike that'd best suit. Much as I hate saying it, one of the "benefits" of modern biking is the wide spectrum of options. Long gone are the days of hard-tail, soft-tail and road bike - there's pretty much everything else in-between and beyond!

If my garage was empty, my obsession with 96-97 Kona's didn't exist and I had a grand to spend on a new bike, I'd be looking at a second hand 27.5" all purpose bike with a dropper post.

 

[mk one]

Welcome to the site, and like suggested already, fulfill your dreams and get an AMP or Proflex, they are both still as capable as they were then.

This site is the best place for any spares or hard to find parts, as well as very helpful and knowledgeable people who will be more than happy to help with any problems you may encounter in your retro journey. Be warned though, it can lead to empty wallets and full storage space very quickly

 

[FluffyChicken]

...
If my garage was empty, my obsession with 96-97 Kona's didn't exist and I had a grand to spend on a new bike, I'd be looking at a second hand 27.5" all purpose bike with a dropper post.

Thank yourself lucky for your Kona obsession ;-)



Stick to the 90's enojoy and have fun.

Buy a Kona, Buy a Rocky, Buy a Proflex and AMP.
Build it and have fun.

Them there modern bikes will only be comfy, easy to ride and have 64 different standards that constantly change and don't fit each other.
Brakes, humbug... who wants to be slowing down, it's all about have fast you dare go around the corner or through the gate... especially when you have little option.
Big comfy large wheels that roll over stuff but cannot turn around a tree....
The ability to buy what you need in a shop/online/present cannot get anything from anywhere situation.
e-bikes,you can now get to 16mph with little effort, it does the work for you...until you forgot to charge the battery.

So get that old bike, meet up when allowed, with the rest of the Bristol lot, down the docks I think ? Meet up at Malvern for the classic, shout banter at all them riders trying hard on theri comfy efficient vehicles. Then give it ago yourself bent over on your thin tyre, with mud and leaves collecting in your brakes


Do both ?

 

[2manyoranges]

mostly valid points from everyone.

and after all this is retrobike - keeping the spirit alive.

But....I think you have communicated that you are facing a decision - new, or old.

If you want to be part of a retro social scene, and relive the feel of the past, then that's absolutely fine. I have available a brilliant medium Proflex 856 frame. Top end performance at the time.

BUT

it feels like you want to know about the new geometry and the performance of contemporary bikes. The COTICS and STANTONS are already considered classics of their time - read Guy Kesteven, and he should know... - I have both, and they are indeed modern classics in the making. Stanton dropouts mean that they are pretty standards-change-resistant; they can be 135, 142 or 148.

I think it's not right say 'unless you are racing' or 'retro just as good' - that's not valid, since it is not objectively the case. A 203 disc on the front beats V brakes. A 64 head angle and 170 forks, combined with 27.5 wheels DOES climb and DOES corner nimbly. Long low and slack, with a steep seat angle DOES climb. The real question is whether you WANT to go modern or go retro. They are different things. I have experienced them all, and reviewed and written about many, so I speak from some base of knowledge and experience.

I don't ride my B3 and Proflex anymore. I have replaced my Marin Ti with a Stanton Ti. It's not fashion, it's function. I can't part with my Orange C16R, but not because it's a better bike than my Cotic, it's because it's invested with memories. It's important not to confuse the two things, I think.

 

[Dapperton]

mostly valid points from everyone.

and after all this is retrobike - keeping the spirit alive.

But....I think you have communicated that you are facing a decision - new, or old.

If you want to be part of a retro social scene, and relive the feel of the past, then that's absolutely fine. I have available a brilliant medium Proflex 856 frame. Top end performance at the time.

BUT

it feels like you want to know about the new geometry and the performance of contemporary bikes. The COTICS and STANTONS are already considered classics of their time - read Guy Kesteven, and he should know... - I have both, and they are indeed modern classics in the making. Stanton dropouts mean that they are pretty standards-change-resistant; they can be 135, 142 or 148.

I think it's not right say 'unless you are racing' or 'retro just as good' - that's not valid, since it is not objectively the case. A 203 disc on the front beats V brakes. A 64 head angle and 170 forks, combined with 27.5 wheels DOES climb and DOES corner nimbly. Long low and slack, with a steep seat angle DOES climb. The real question is whether you WANT to go modern or go retro. They are different things. I have experienced them all, and reviewed and written about many, so I speak from some base of knowledge and experience.

I don't ride my B3 and Proflex anymore. I have replaced my Marin Ti with a Stanton Ti. It's not fashion, it's function. I can't part with my Orange C16R, but not because it's a better bike than my Cotic, it's because it's invested with memories. It's important not to confuse the two things, I think.

Thanks - it won't let me reply to your PM until I've posted here 30 times, but i'd love to chat if you can swing me your email address?

 

[FluffyChicken]

email is the button at the bottom of the post, or look in the user profile if on mobile.

 

[Dapperton]

Re:

Hey - thanks for all the replies.

This is a bike to be ridden, it's not a project to be finely tuned and sit in a garage except for rainy days. This will be used and going out in all weathers (my old stomping ground was the peak district, things are comparatively dry and warm round here!), but at the end of the day it's how enjoyable it is to ride. I'm 40 now and fairly fit, but the idea of lugging any extra weight up a hill or not getting the best performance I really can is something to consider.

The AMP was always the dream, and it's definitely an itch I need to scratch now I can actually afford one, but first I just need to get back into cycling - so maybe something modern to start off then look at a retro ride. Definitely not getting an ebike! I want something for some good singletrack, I never had the guts to go mental downhill when I was 18 let alone 22 years later.

My old bike never even had V brakes, just the original gen XTR caliper with the longer (and if I remember correctly slightly curved) pads - disc brakes seem wildly exciting. Clearly I've got a lot of reading to do, but not too much. I'll probably dive in and buy next week.