Advice about spokes

[Anthony]

I’ve never built a wheel from scratch, just swapped rims, so I’ve never bought spokes for a particular hub/rim combo. As I’m put off by Chain Reaction’s prices, I’m thinking of buying some boxes of 144 and selling the spokes I don’t need.

Obviously if you can get away with using all the same length spokes it would mean I wouldn't have to invest so much, so I wondered what the realistic tolerances are? I realise that using very short spokes could put too much strain on the threads. And long ones would poke out of the nipple and make it impossible to screw it.

Can anybody who builds wheels advise me about these specific examples please?

XT/217 - spoke calculator says 263.9 at the front, 263 left rear, 261.4 left right - would 64 x 262 spokes be ok for all those needs, or is minus 1.9mm at the front too short?

XT/517 - spoke calculator says 264.6, 263.7 and 262.2 - how about using all 262s for this? Or is -2.6mm a no no? How short is too short?

Any advice would be very welcome.

 

[Xesh]

XT/217 - spoke calculator says 263.9 at the front, 263 left rear, 261.4 left right - would 64 x 262 spokes be ok for all those needs, or is minus 1.9mm at the front too short?

I'd say 262/264 for this wheel.

XT/517 - spoke calculator says 264.6, 263.7 and 262.2 - how about using all 262s for this? Or is -2.6mm a no no? How short is too short?

Again I'd use 262/264.

It makes the rear wheel far easier to dish if you use the shorter spokes on the driveside. If you use the same size you risk running out of thread on the spoke before it's properly dished. Also you'll have a bit of spoke sticking out of the top of the nipple. This shouldn't be a problem with the two rims you have as they're deep enough to allow this. The problem is if you need to tighten the driveside spokes in the future you mightn't be able to tighten them enough as the nipples would be nearly at the end of the thread.

 

[batmick]

I second Xesh's opinion. Bite the bullet and get the right length.

In addition to the dishing problem you will also be more prone to breaks if you pick them too short. Ideally you want the spoke fill the entire length of the nipple. If you only fill the front end, chances are you'll lose spoke nipples that break off at the flat to round transition or at the head. That is even more important if you use alloy instead of brass nipples.

 

[Anthony]

That's interesting - you're both saying that where the exact calculation was 263.0 and 261.4, you'd go for 264/262. i.e. you'd always go too long because a mm too long is better than a mm too short?

The nipples I've used were 12mm with c8mm of thread, so I assumed that using 6-7mm out of the 8 would be strong enough - and better than having the spoke protrude by a mm, which prevents you from being to use a screwdriver.

As for using alloy nipples, would any sane person do that? :? Brass for bliss, alloy for agony IMHO.

 

[retroyetirigid]

+1 to boyh of the above replys.

Also lube the threads !! I always grease the spokes before building and use chain lube (Silkoline) the nipples before tensioning, this allows for truing after 6 months+ of use (weather brass or alloy nipples)
And use double butted spokes !!Plain gauge are like colloms of concrete and have NO give, where as DB act like a spring and build a better wheel.

 

[Xesh]

That's interesting - you're both saying that where the exact calculation was 263.0 and 261.4, you'd go for 264/262. i.e. you'd always go too long because a mm too long is better than a mm too short?.......

In my experience spoke calculations always end up with spokes slightly too short. In addition to that I use the rules for rounding that I learned in maths classes (round up if it's .5 or higher and round down if it's .4 or lower).

 

[batmick]

I agree (again) that most calculators tend to be on the short side. I use the power-screwdriver only for the initial tightening anyway so if the spoke ends up getting a tad too high during the final tensioning and truing it does not really matter.
Alloy nipples are no problem under many conditions, especially if you have a suspension rig. I have blue alloy nipples, radially spoked, on the front wheel of my Zaskar LE. Has held just fine for over ten years now and I'm what's generally referred to as a Clydesdale. Brass in the back though.
If alloy is what you want I'd definitely go for 1.8 spokes. The nipples are the same size for 2mm and 1.8mm spokes so you have a little more "meat" with the thinner spokes. And yes, definitely butted spokes.

I use a drop of oil on the seat of the spokes in the rim for easier truing. The threads I dip in linseed oil. That stuff glides good at first, allowing truing and initial adjustments over the first couple of weeks. Then it gets hard and acts like Loctite.

 

[FluffyChicken]

I always round down unless it's just under an available size

They do also come in odd sizes, not just even so if you're buying bulk you should be able to get 263mm.


Chainreaction prices do not seem bad (DT DB & Rev), especially as you can request half and half.

 

[legrandefromage]

wheels I've taken apart have had same length spokes including a Chris King hubbed wheel I took apart to replace a rim.

 

[kaiser]

SJS do spokes in packs of 6 and theres an ebay seller doing 4's.